|
|
Post by straf on Aug 6, 2012 1:10:27 GMT -5
Is literature suffering from slow degradation? Or are people just getting more stupid? Perhaps I haven't seen the full picture, but it seems to me that it has to be one or the other. If generalizations are to be believed (as much generalization can be believed), your average bookshelf from ages ago would contain Keats and Milton and Sophocles and Shakespeare and so on and so on, rather than Harry Potter or that 50 Shades crap. All of this, though, seems to be a recent trend because even the early twentieth century had intelligent authors with something worthwhile to say, such as Yeats or Faulkner or Fitzgerald. Even after the literary scene began to be polluted with postmodernist works, the stray bit of genius would come through, like in Pynchon or Wallace. As a testament to the changing face of literature and its consumers, it should be noted that sales of Agatha Christie novels rival that of Shakespeare, and in a list of authors who who have sold 100 million books or more, one is hard-pressed to find an author of any intellectual capacity (relatively speaking), for it is almost full of romances and dollar thrillers, with authors such as Danielle Steele, Dean Koontz, Stephen King, John Grisham, and Nora Roberts appearing ahead of Charles Dickens, Alexander Pushkin and Leo Tolstoy (each of the latter authors appearing ahead of each other in that order, and thus having less terrible authors appearing ahead of them). Naturally, I'm not privy to the thoughts and interests of the millions and millions of people that purchase books, but I prefer something with weight, and one can notice a significant lightening of both plots and language alike throughout the years. I liked it when words were more than letters on a page, when what was written was charged beyond its capacity with meaning, when a simple billboard could have been God and a plot didn't go in one direction, and the plots weren't governed by the genre or the readers. But maybe I'm just too harsh on new literature, or maybe I'm just too pretentious, or too sentimental with what I've read. What do you think on the matter?
"A sudden blow: the great wings beating still
Above the staggering girl, her thighs caressed
By the dark webs, her nape caught in his bill,
He holds her helpless breast upon his breast.
How can those terrified vague fingers push
The feathered glory from her loosening thighs?
And how can body, laid in that white rush,
But feel the strange heart beating where it lies?
A shudder in the loins engenders there
The broken wall, the burning roof and tower
And Agamemnon dead.
Being so caught up,
So mastered by the brute blood of the air,
Did she put on his knowledge with his power
Before the indifferent beak could let her drop?"
-- Leda and the Swan, W.B. Yeats 1928
|
|
|
|
Post by fishy on Aug 6, 2012 1:18:56 GMT -5
The movie was better.
|
|
|
|
Post by Elysia Drake on Aug 6, 2012 1:26:46 GMT -5
both because it's a cycle
popular literature caters to the masses; it's a business now, after all so obviously they have to cater to taste
people are getting dumber so they want simpler books, and since intellectually challenging books aren't regarded as an art form anymore/are becoming mass-produced to fill needs and make money whatnot people don't get any smarter
working at a library and seeing the entire walls of james patterson and nora roberts taught me the rules of the literature market's supply and demand pretty quick
and with what gets published nowdays, we can't even use the "at least people are reading" argument because they'd be better off just not reading
tl;dr: capitalist pigs and degrading society and youth trying to remove the blame by analysing how society sucks SO MUCH you know the deal
and do we even like "real" literature or are we just saying that to seem smart?
|
|
|
|
Post by hey on Aug 6, 2012 1:33:11 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Elysia Drake on Aug 6, 2012 1:45:22 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by Zilla2112 on Aug 6, 2012 2:04:04 GMT -5
This is certainly an interesting topic, and this problem of what seems to be a degradation in quality is not exclusive to literature either. Look at music today: the music that tops the charts is mostly predictable and simplistic with hardly any lyrical depth or emotion. Occasionally, an artist who tops the charts may do something creative with their music, but otherwise it's the same repetitive shit they've been selling over the past decade, with the occasional gimmick (read: brostep) thrown in. Unique and intellectually stimulating music is still being made, but it's not anywhere near as popular. Look at movies today: many of the movies that hit major theaters are regurgitated in some way. Granted, some could argue that many movies (even great ones) have similar general plots, but the overflow of special-effect driven action movies with little plot, useless sequels that ruin what were original ideas, and romantic comedy/drama stuff that never strays from the "norm" is ridiculous. Independent films with greater creativity are still being made, and some big-budget films nowadays are still excellent, but many of them are just crap. I'm not sure if it's a problem that's only happening now, though. Generally, it's the unoriginal, derivative stuff that's popular in its day that is forgotten. The more creative, unique art that is overlooked in its day is the stuff remembered by those who document history. This article explains it pretty well when it applies to music (Cracked ftw): www.cracked.com/article_18983_5-complaints-about-modern-life-that-are-statistically-b.s._p2.htmlThat's just my two cents, idk. I don't know as much about literature as I should, but I feel that music and films also are following a similar path (if it's even a path and not just something we notice only now because we didn't experience the past). |
|
|
|
Post by civplayah on Aug 6, 2012 8:27:08 GMT -5
I'd attribute this to, yes, society getting dumber. I haven't quite thought of a possible cause, but I'd say it's the things we learn in school today. In the Age of Enlightenment they were learning Greek and Latin and a lot of other Humanities and now we're just learning the alphabet and what sounds the letters make. Perhaps what the real problem is that the smart people are mixed in with the... less smart people and they all learn the same things instead of the smart people moving ahead. But I do see why it's this way-- it would hurt a child's self-esteem to be put in the "not smart" class.
|
|
Toki
El Goodo
Bonerific
%\0\%[k4r]
Posts: 84
|
Post by Toki on Aug 6, 2012 13:27:52 GMT -5
Kids have and always will be dumb, they haven't gotten anymore stupid. I know so many smart people along with all of the ignorant twats that go to my school, and I'm sure everyone here is in a similar situation. Instead of making accusations that "stupidity", something that's been around since the beginning of time, is causing the "deterioration of america", why not look at it from a completely different angle? I know many smart kids that take no interest in reading, and also, the fact that some people might be trying to make their argument seem more valid by using big words makes you come off as nothing more than a pretentious prick that's attempting to make themselves seem smarter than everybody else.
TL;DR: There have always been stupid people and that has nothing to do with it. It's society's interests in general.
|
|
|
|
Post by Scarecrow on Aug 7, 2012 5:07:09 GMT -5
Kids have and always will be dumb, they haven't gotten anymore stupid. I know so many smart people along with all of the ignorant twats that go to my school, and I'm sure everyone here is in a similar situation. Instead of making accusations that "stupidity", something that's been around since the beginning of time, is causing the "deterioration of america", why not look at it from a completely different angle? I know many smart kids that take no interest in reading, and also, the fact that some people might be trying to make their argument seem more valid by using big words makes you come off as nothing more than a pretentious prick that's attempting to make themselves seem smarter than everybody else. TL;DR: There have always been stupid people and that has nothing to do with it. It's society's interests in general. I was thinking the same thing. But literature is based on the taste of society, I guess you can say blame the media and pop culture since it is in a way responsible for influencing society as it changes. It caters to the masses and is a continuing cycle that won't stop, whatever is popular at the moment will be created. Doesn't really mean that humanity has gotten stupid or anything, just that different generations will have different appeals. I don't know that's just what I think. |
|
Toki
El Goodo
Bonerific
%\0\%[k4r]
Posts: 84
|
Post by Toki on Aug 7, 2012 5:10:51 GMT -5
Kids have and always will be dumb, they haven't gotten anymore stupid. I know so many smart people along with all of the ignorant twats that go to my school, and I'm sure everyone here is in a similar situation. Instead of making accusations that "stupidity", something that's been around since the beginning of time, is causing the "deterioration of america", why not look at it from a completely different angle? I know many smart kids that take no interest in reading, and also, the fact that some people might be trying to make their argument seem more valid by using big words makes you come off as nothing more than a pretentious prick that's attempting to make themselves seem smarter than everybody else. TL;DR: There have always been stupid people and that has nothing to do with it. It's society's interests in general. I was thinking the same thing. But literature is based on the taste of society, I guess you can say blame the media and pop culture since it is in a way responsible for influencing society as it changes. It caters to the masses and is a continuing cycle that won't stop, whatever is popular at the moment will be created. Doesn't really mean that humanity has gotten stupid or anything, just that different generations will have different appeals. I don't know that's just what I think. Even if a work of literature is on the subject of youths interests, no one would read it because they can't be bothered to read, and apparently are "too stupid".  |
|
|
|
Post by straf on Aug 7, 2012 20:22:44 GMT -5
But it seems that what one can "cherry-pick" from today's output is inferior to what was created before. That's what I think, anyway. |
|
|
|
Post by straf on Aug 7, 2012 20:39:13 GMT -5
Kids have and always will be dumb, they haven't gotten anymore stupid. I know so many smart people along with all of the ignorant twats that go to my school, and I'm sure everyone here is in a similar situation. Instead of making accusations that "stupidity", something that's been around since the beginning of time, is causing the "deterioration of america", why not look at it from a completely different angle? I know many smart kids that take no interest in reading, and also, the fact that some people might be trying to make their argument seem more valid by using big words makes you come off as nothing more than a pretentious prick that's attempting to make themselves seem smarter than everybody else. TL;DR: There have always been stupid people and that has nothing to do with it. It's society's interests in general. Of course, the whole point of this thread wasn't if people take interest in reading. There are intelligent people that don't read, I know, but I'm not saying that stupid people are the ones that aren't reading, but that books seem to be becoming more geared to the stupid people and/or are deteriorating in quality. Sure, not everything was great even a hundred years ago, but as I said in my response to Zilla what ine can pick from now doesn't seem a good as what was written before. Look a DF Wallace or Umberto Eco -- great authors (even writing for mainstream consumption!), but they don't hold up to classical standards. And while I did make a sort of nod to the fact that I think people are getting more stupid, it wasn't the entire subject of my post, nor was putting too much blame on them anyway, so your response was kind of critical in the wrong way. Sure stupidities been around since the beginning of time, but it hasn't always been so noticeable in what one would consider works for the intelligent. After all, books used to be a high class sort of thing. Writing used to be a high class sort of thing, now any fucker can do it -- I think that's really what I wanted to stress -- and the public seems to go for the "any fucker" authors, if you know what I mean. While it's true that even back in the "antiquarian" age of literature that I like and refer to so much one could write for a quick buck (Dostoevsky did it), and one could write for general public consumption (what nowadays would turn into a "bestseller" or some shit) (Shakespeare did it), the standards and quality of writing were much higher. And even when their prose wasn't so great (apparently Dostoevsky couldn't form a complete thought without an error or awkward or clunky writing in the original Russian), the plots were generally better (Crime and Punishment was a fucking mind blower). That's really what I mean I think (I'm not always explicitly privy to my thoughts of days or even hours before). And I sense that you're trying to insinuate something with that post. >.> |
|
Toki
El Goodo
Bonerific
%\0\%[k4r]
Posts: 84
|
Post by Toki on Aug 7, 2012 20:51:38 GMT -5
Kids have and always will be dumb, they haven't gotten anymore stupid. I know so many smart people along with all of the ignorant twats that go to my school, and I'm sure everyone here is in a similar situation. Instead of making accusations that "stupidity", something that's been around since the beginning of time, is causing the "deterioration of america", why not look at it from a completely different angle? I know many smart kids that take no interest in reading, and also, the fact that some people might be trying to make their argument seem more valid by using big words makes you come off as nothing more than a pretentious prick that's attempting to make themselves seem smarter than everybody else. TL;DR: There have always been stupid people and that has nothing to do with it. It's society's interests in general. Of course, the whole point of this thread wasn't if people take interest in reading. There are intelligent people that don't read, I know, but I'm not saying that stupid people are the ones that aren't reading, but that books seem to be becoming more geared to the stupid people and/or are deteriorating in quality. Sure, not everything was great even a hundred years ago, but as I said in my response to Zilla what ine can pick from now doesn't seem a good as what was written before. Look a DF Wallace or Umberto Eco -- great authors (even writing for mainstream consumption!), but they don't hold up to classical standards. And while I did make a sort of nod to the fact that I think people are getting more stupid, it wasn't the entire subject of my post, nor was putting too much blame on them anyway, so your response was kind of critical in the wrong way. Sure stupidities been around since the beginning of time, but it hasn't always been so noticeable in what one would consider works for the intelligent. After all, books used to be a high class sort of thing. Writing used to be a high class sort of thing, now any fucker can do it -- I think that's really what I wanted to stress -- and the public seems to go for the "any fucker" authors, if you know what I mean. While it's true that even back in the "antiquarian" age of literature that I like and refer to so much one could write for a quick buck (Dostoevsky did it), and one could write for general public consumption (what nowadays would turn into a "bestseller" or some shit) (Shakespeare did it), the standards and quality of writing were much higher. And even when their prose wasn't so great (apparently Dostoevsky couldn't form a complete thought without an error or awkward or clunky writing in the original Russian), the plots were generally better (Crime and Punishment was a fucking mind blower). That's really what I mean I think (I'm not always explicitly privy to my thoughts of days or even hours before). And I sense that you're trying to insinuate something with that post. >.> That last part was just a generalization, sorry. I know people like that in real life and it ticks me. If you're suggestion that it's not the readers, it's the material that's declining in quality, I can certainly agree with you. There are still some good series on the market, but I can safely say we're in a rut if Stephanie Mayer is praised as one of the best writers out there nowadays. |
|
|
|
Post by Zilla2112 on Aug 7, 2012 21:24:05 GMT -5
But it seems that what one can "cherry-pick" from today's output is inferior to what was created before. That's what I think, anyway. You're probably right. I'm not a huge literature buff and I don't pay much attention to what books are released nowadays (all I know is that Twilight and 50 Shades of Bondage are supposed to be shitty). I just thought it'd be similar to current trends in music, film, and video games in that the most popular stuff often isn't good while the unique stuff doesn't get much mainstream attention. I'm certain there's a site out there similar to Rate Your Music, Metacritic, and Rotten Tomatoes that applies to books, and hopefully it gives lesser known authors some credit. Do you know of such a site, and if so, what do you think of the recent books it praises? |
|
|
|
Post by Elysia Drake on Aug 7, 2012 21:56:58 GMT -5
|
|
